Robby on Rails

You’ve pretty much articulated my thoughts on the subject. My tweet from earlier:

“if merging with merb means more choices, i’m not sure what to think—rails has low barriers to entry, but more choices means more barrier.”

I think it’s exciting news, but I’m cautious about what it means, particularly to the job of getting new people started in Rails. If we take on a new starter, or someone with limited Rails experience, how quickly can we get them going? I’m envisaging that Obie’s next “The Rails Way” revision could be twice as large ;) and no-one wants to carry something that size around in their bag.

But this is an age old problem—convenience versus power. I just thought Rails had chosen convenience for good.

I agree with “Lightning David Bolton” here. This sounds good on the surface but I’m concerned about how complex the configuration will end up. However, if what they say is true (about default solutions), I hope that people will avoid straying too far away from conventions.

As a Rails consultant, it’s great that I can jump from project to project without a lot of variation between the libraries, but it sounds like we (consultants) are going to have to spend more time learning about alternative libraries should someone call us to ask for support. A Ruby on Rails application could be anything in two years time.

I imagine a sales call going like

• Are you using Active Record?
• No, are you using Data Mapper?
• No, are you using Og?
• Oh, your previous developer decided to make their own ORM?

Awesome.

I really hope that the Ruby on Rails community does a good job to advocate not straying from the pack because I’m sick of trying to clean up after developers that think they’re clever and have their own solutions. Rails has strongly discouraged this as a whole and now it seems to be opening a door to that sort of behavior.

Robby is echoes my thoughts well. It is and will always be a people problem and Rails provided a technical solution (some might call it a hurdle) to this. As someone who wants to just Get Things Done, Rails has given me an opportunity to earn more personal time through conventions.

I am just worried about hitting a point when the inmates are running the asylum. However, I am excited about the possibilities but will remain a skeptic.

I find it most humorous that your concerns are quite the opposite of mine. I switched to Merb a while back as I hated Rails telling me what I could and could not do. I’m hoping that I am still going to get the control I need in Rails 3.0. If anyone can satisfy the two (or more) mindsets, I’m sure the guys behind Rails/Merb can do it. Btw, Merb 1.0 is much different than version 0.3. It was kinda painful at version 0.3, and the only reason I showed interest throughout subsequent versions is because I hated how much time I was spending hacking on Rail’s code to do what I wanted to do. I feel that it paid off, as I have a a few projects that I’m doing in Merb and loving it now. Both of us don’t want things to change too much, but for completely different reasons.

Merb’s got some default libraries. When you generate a Merb app, by default it’ll use DataMapper for its ORM, RSpec for testing, jQuery for its Javascript library and it even generates a .gitignore for you, encouraging Git. There are leaner ways to generate an app without these though.

DataMapper may be new to Rails devs, but the others (RSpec, jQuery and Git) are not, and I think they’re actually better defaults. And ActiveRecord is gonna be the default anyway, so I don’t really see this as a problem for Rails devs. But yeah, I can see that support people are gonna have to study that too.

You’ve basically summed up my thoughts on the matter – excited that two fantastic teams have decided to work together, but concerned about how these diametrically opposed projects (in my opinion) are going to come together without getting in the way of why I use Rails (opinionated software with intelligent mindshare).

Like yourself, I’ve embraced some of the aspects of Rails I originally saw as constraints…and while I do find myself wishing every so often that Rails was custom made just for me, it’s not long before I realise that Rails was never going to solve 100% of my problems.

Another aspect I’m concerned about is stifling innovation. Merb has done a fantastic job of keeping the Rails team on their toes, and vice-versa. Merging the projects risks removing the competition, which has yielded great results for both projects thus far.

That being said, I really don’t want to pre-empt the problems that I’m sure both teams are already thinking about. I look forward to seeing what comes out of the Rails & Merb teams in the lead up to Rails 3.

Hey Robby, let me try to allay your fears. An absolutely key element of Rails is that there be a default choice for everything. When you’re first starting out, you don’t know what ORM is better. Or which testing solution is right. Or why you might pick jQuery over Prototype. And frankly, you don’t give a damn. All you want is get started. Rails is going to give you exactly that.

Rails 3 will continue with the strong defaults of AR, ERb/Builder, Prototype, test/unit, etc. But at the same time, there’s just no benefit in denying or trying to suppress other frameworks that could drop in. Some people were already using Sequel/Data Mapper, jQuery, rspec, and whatever instead of the Rails defaults. Rails just weren’t making that particularly easy.

I really like the idea that Rails will have strong defaults but be respectful of other options.

Another thing that’s not going to happen is for the default stack to require any additional configuration. We’re not going to allow the default ride to be any more bumpy. Instead, we’re just going to say, hey, if you want to go off-piste, here’s a map so you don’t get hurt.

Robby, IMHO as a Postgres guy in 1 year you will be loving DataMapper. BTW we are already choosing alternatives, I don’t think many people is using test/unit, we all switched to RSpec. And having a public API is just plain awesome. I suggest you take a look to the Merb book, especially slices, contextual validations (that’s DataMapper) and routing.

Robby, The thing that I remember the most was the router, it was quite inflexible for a couple of projects that I was working on. There were some other things, but I do not recall what they were off-hand. Of course, many things may have changed since I jumped ship, as has been indicated in both the Merb and Rails blogs that the projects have grown closer together. We probably do have different mindsets on how to do projects – I’ve always been one to take my time to think things through, while others like to just “get things done.” I’m not saying that either is a good/bad approach, I just think and prefer to do things differently than what I remember Rails allowing me to. I love having choices, the cost of speed is worth it to me. It’s going to be interesting to watch how they are going to blend the two approaches.

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